Monday, January 12th, MMDCCLXXIX, 6:00 p.m. - 7:20 p.m.
Participants: Sibylla Ambrosia Fulvia
Marcus Quinctius Clavus
Aulus Iulius Paterculus
Participants: Sibylla Ambrosia Fulvia
Marcus Quinctius Clavus
Aulus Iulius Paterculus
Publius Sextius Laevus
Sibylla Ambrosia Fulvia and I joined the call first. I suggested to
Sibylla that we might use this session to plan a few presentations for
later in the year. M. Quinctius Clavus joined just as this proposal was
being made, and it was repeated.
P.
Sextius Laevus also came on the call briefly. However, there were
apparent technical issues which appeared to prevent him from speaking
and to kick him out each of the two times he attempted to join.
I asked whether either Sibylla or Quinctius had any agenda items they
wanted to discuss. Quinctius mentioned that he would like to correct his
display name in groups.io
to show his Roman name rather than his English one (using the official
version "Quinctius", rather than "Quintius", as we'd been accustomed to
call him). As it turned out, we were able to do this on the shared
screen right away, at least for the Nova Britannia list (https://groups.io/g/
I expressed surprise that Quinctius was not on the list for Sodalitas Militaris (https://groups.io/g/
This lead to a discussion of Roman helmets, with Quinctius providing most of the information as Sibylla & I asked occasional questions. Quinctius recommended the book Army of the Roman Emperors by Thomas Fischer, citing it frequently in the information he told us.Among the Fischer's theories which Quinctius thought credible were that a lot of helmets which had been found were contemporary rather than styles which had succeeded one another. In writing the book, many Eastern European helmets otherwise little reported in English-language texts had been studied, including the one example with a crosswise crest. By contrast to this singular example, many helmets with side plumes had been found, which made it unlikely that this was a mark of rank unless a disproportionate number of optiones were losing their helmets.
Sibylla asked whether there were different regional styles. Quinctius answered that there did not seem to be much regional differentiation in helmets within the Roman army, but there was some evidence of different belt styles for different legions.
Sibylla asked whether armour was provided to soldier or bought by them. Per Thomas Fischer, Quinctius said, these would have been bought by soldiers on installment plan. One legionary's mother was given money when his armour was sold back to the army. It was in the 1st century that this would have been deducted from pay, during the 4th century such armour had to be bought directly. It would have been bought back when soldiers left the army, as they wouldn't necessarily need their armour and might not have been permitted to take their swords. Armour which had been found with multiple names marked into it showed that the same suit of armour was reissued.
I asked whether there were restrictions on who could be armed with swords, outside the city of Rome itself. Quinctius replied that it depended whether swords were actually needed, and gave the example of recent colonies such as Britain and Pannonia as places where former soldiers had been settled together and where they might retain weapons into retirement. Pannonia, Quinctius added, was incorporated under Augustus, while Caesar re-founded Corinth (which had been destroyed at around the same time as Carthage) as a colony.
Sibylla asked about armour found in Teutoburg Forest. Quinctius reported that there were a few plates found, as well as one near-full set of armour on buried body. This was the second near-full set to be discovered, a rare and unusual find, and was on display in the local Kalkriese museum. These finds had actually help persuade archaeologists that segmented armour was in use earlier than previously thought.
Sibylla asked where the armour was made. Quinctius answered that there were shops that supplied armour and cloaks to the troops: local businesspeople were recorded as selling it. It was only in Late Antiquity that state-owned fabrica were employed for supply. I wondered, though did not say, whether the private manufacture of items worn by the troops could have enabled others to impersonate soldiers, and what the penalty would have been for doing so.
The conversation turned to army transport, which Quinctius told us was independent from the civilian system and which employed rivers when possible, as water transport was much cheaper than land. This lead to a conversation about canals, ancient and modern. There was an old canal near Quinctius, of which the most noticeable remnant was "Canal Street". We wondered whether the Erie Canal was still in use (the answer appears to be yes, based on brief subsequent research, but the modern canal is somewhat different than the original one and sees less commercial traffic). Quinctius brought up the canal at Corinth.
We discussed Roman concrete and differences between Roman and Medieval stonework. Quinctius noted that Roman stonework was smooth and even, while Medieval stonework was more often of differently shaped stones.As further points of comparison, Sibylla brought up Inca & Aztec stonework.and Quinctius the Cyclopean walls of Mycenaean cities, both cases in which close-fitting stones were laid together without the need for mortar.
This lead to a discussion of Roman helmets, with Quinctius providing most of the information as Sibylla & I asked occasional questions. Quinctius recommended the book Army of the Roman Emperors by Thomas Fischer, citing it frequently in the information he told us.Among the Fischer's theories which Quinctius thought credible were that a lot of helmets which had been found were contemporary rather than styles which had succeeded one another. In writing the book, many Eastern European helmets otherwise little reported in English-language texts had been studied, including the one example with a crosswise crest. By contrast to this singular example, many helmets with side plumes had been found, which made it unlikely that this was a mark of rank unless a disproportionate number of optiones were losing their helmets.
Sibylla asked whether there were different regional styles. Quinctius answered that there did not seem to be much regional differentiation in helmets within the Roman army, but there was some evidence of different belt styles for different legions.
Sibylla asked whether armour was provided to soldier or bought by them. Per Thomas Fischer, Quinctius said, these would have been bought by soldiers on installment plan. One legionary's mother was given money when his armour was sold back to the army. It was in the 1st century that this would have been deducted from pay, during the 4th century such armour had to be bought directly. It would have been bought back when soldiers left the army, as they wouldn't necessarily need their armour and might not have been permitted to take their swords. Armour which had been found with multiple names marked into it showed that the same suit of armour was reissued.
I asked whether there were restrictions on who could be armed with swords, outside the city of Rome itself. Quinctius replied that it depended whether swords were actually needed, and gave the example of recent colonies such as Britain and Pannonia as places where former soldiers had been settled together and where they might retain weapons into retirement. Pannonia, Quinctius added, was incorporated under Augustus, while Caesar re-founded Corinth (which had been destroyed at around the same time as Carthage) as a colony.
Sibylla asked about armour found in Teutoburg Forest. Quinctius reported that there were a few plates found, as well as one near-full set of armour on buried body. This was the second near-full set to be discovered, a rare and unusual find, and was on display in the local Kalkriese museum. These finds had actually help persuade archaeologists that segmented armour was in use earlier than previously thought.
Sibylla asked where the armour was made. Quinctius answered that there were shops that supplied armour and cloaks to the troops: local businesspeople were recorded as selling it. It was only in Late Antiquity that state-owned fabrica were employed for supply. I wondered, though did not say, whether the private manufacture of items worn by the troops could have enabled others to impersonate soldiers, and what the penalty would have been for doing so.
The conversation turned to army transport, which Quinctius told us was independent from the civilian system and which employed rivers when possible, as water transport was much cheaper than land. This lead to a conversation about canals, ancient and modern. There was an old canal near Quinctius, of which the most noticeable remnant was "Canal Street". We wondered whether the Erie Canal was still in use (the answer appears to be yes, based on brief subsequent research, but the modern canal is somewhat different than the original one and sees less commercial traffic). Quinctius brought up the canal at Corinth.
We discussed Roman concrete and differences between Roman and Medieval stonework. Quinctius noted that Roman stonework was smooth and even, while Medieval stonework was more often of differently shaped stones.As further points of comparison, Sibylla brought up Inca & Aztec stonework.and Quinctius the Cyclopean walls of Mycenaean cities, both cases in which close-fitting stones were laid together without the need for mortar.
We also talked about how later people often cannibalized old monuments
for their stone. Sibylla mentioned the pyramids, while Quinctius
mentioned that certain parts of Hadrian's wall had vanished because
local farmers had repurposed much of the materials. Quinctius also
mentioned a Roman gravestone had been incorporated into the foundation
of a church.
Quinctius stated that
the remains of most Romans whose tombstones were still in existence had
been lost, but that the ashes of Marcus Favonius Facilis were believed
found under their marker.
For my part, I said that I would be pretty nervous about having a gravestone incorporated into my house and that I was surprised that the Medieval or early modern people reusing these stones were not more concerned about being haunted. Quinctius expressed doubts that people of the time of which he was speaking would have been concerned about ghosts of an earlier and different culture. I mused aloud that incorporating a gravestone into a church might have been seen as less risky than building it into a private home.
For my part, I said that I would be pretty nervous about having a gravestone incorporated into my house and that I was surprised that the Medieval or early modern people reusing these stones were not more concerned about being haunted. Quinctius expressed doubts that people of the time of which he was speaking would have been concerned about ghosts of an earlier and different culture. I mused aloud that incorporating a gravestone into a church might have been seen as less risky than building it into a private home.
Sibylla asked about Roman beliefs about ghosts. I mentioned the book Greek and Roman Ghost Stories
by Lacy Collison-Morley, but wasn't able to remember many details from
it. Sibylla said that a story of a Roman ghost awakening in Medieval or
early modern times due to reuse of a gravestone would be an interesting
story. Quinctius recalled a short story in the ebook sequel to "The
Legions of the Mist" by Amanda Cockrell (https://www.amandacockrell.
We talked a bit about the beliefs of modern people concerning ghosts. Quintius mentioned taking a class on religiously unaffiliated people, in which he'd learned that a significant minority of people who did not believe in Heaven or Hell still believed in ghosts. Sibylla and Quinctius each told stories of things which had been experienced by people they knew. I suggested that "Ghost Stories from Ancient Times" might be a good topic for a presentation, and Quinctius said he might be able to research the topic, but that it would have to wait until later in the year. (It wasn't said at the time, but October might be a good time.)
Sibylla asked whether the Romans would have had option for storage of goods by private individuals, analogous to the storage units we have in modern days. I was doubtful that this was as in-demand in ancient times, and Quinctius could not recall an exact analogue, though he did speculate that it might have been possible to rent space in a warehouse. With respect to the military, Quinctius mentioned the mansiones as a system of transportation and storage.
Sibylla brought up weekends in Roman times. There were no weekends for most Romans during Classical times, as a day of rest was a Jewish & Christian tradition. However, Saturdays were observed in Israel. Quinctius said that even slaves & animals had Saturdays off, per Torah. Quinctius & Sibylla each also mentioned lengths to which observant Christians & Jews would go in modern times to keep from working on their respective holy days.
We talked a bit about the Jewish diaspora. Quinctius mentioned a few places with significant Jewish communities: Alexandria, Rome (especially trans Tiber). Quinctius also stated that Caesar supposedly knew many Jews as a result of growing up in the Subura.
We talked a bit about the beliefs of modern people concerning ghosts. Quintius mentioned taking a class on religiously unaffiliated people, in which he'd learned that a significant minority of people who did not believe in Heaven or Hell still believed in ghosts. Sibylla and Quinctius each told stories of things which had been experienced by people they knew. I suggested that "Ghost Stories from Ancient Times" might be a good topic for a presentation, and Quinctius said he might be able to research the topic, but that it would have to wait until later in the year. (It wasn't said at the time, but October might be a good time.)
Sibylla asked whether the Romans would have had option for storage of goods by private individuals, analogous to the storage units we have in modern days. I was doubtful that this was as in-demand in ancient times, and Quinctius could not recall an exact analogue, though he did speculate that it might have been possible to rent space in a warehouse. With respect to the military, Quinctius mentioned the mansiones as a system of transportation and storage.
Sibylla brought up weekends in Roman times. There were no weekends for most Romans during Classical times, as a day of rest was a Jewish & Christian tradition. However, Saturdays were observed in Israel. Quinctius said that even slaves & animals had Saturdays off, per Torah. Quinctius & Sibylla each also mentioned lengths to which observant Christians & Jews would go in modern times to keep from working on their respective holy days.
We talked a bit about the Jewish diaspora. Quinctius mentioned a few places with significant Jewish communities: Alexandria, Rome (especially trans Tiber). Quinctius also stated that Caesar supposedly knew many Jews as a result of growing up in the Subura.
